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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 9:15 am:   

I found your website whilst searching for info on the Kinnear. I thought I would write with this bit of trivia which I found quite Great Great Great Grandad Johann Justus was one of 6 winegrowers with their families who arrived in Sydney from Germany on the Kinnear in 1838. Johann and his family was from Erbach and they travelled with the your Casper Flick and 4 other winegrowers Johann Stein, Georg Gerhard, Johann Wenz and Friedrich Seckold.
Do you happen to know anything more about these immigrant workers at all? I am keen to find out what happened to Johann and his family with regards to where they lived what work they did etc. Just tonight I also found a descendant of Johann Stein who was also from Erbach and I emailed him as well. This is interesting to find descendants of some of these German winegrowers who travelled together in 1838.
I found the following info from this site:
Six winegrowers with their families, altogether 12 adults and 17 children, arrived in Sydney on the Kinnear on 22nd April. The British Government set strict conditions under which they would accept immigrant workers into the Australian colonies from countries other than Britain. Immigrants from continental Europe with winegrowing skills were eligible because there was no wine industry in Britain. Many colonial landowners in NSW were trying with varying success to establish vineyards. This first group of six winegrowers were recruited in the Rheingau region in Hessen by Major Edward Macarthur for his brother William's property at Camden, 60 km south-west of Sydney. Three of the six (Caspar Flick, Georg Gerhard and Johann Wenz) were from Hattenheim, while the other three were from villages near Hattenheim: Johann Justus and Johann Stein from Erbach, and Friedrich Seckold from Mittelheim. While waiting in London for their departure on the Kinnear, they became worried about what they had let themselves in for, but a letter to them from the Austrian botanist and diplomat Karl von Hügel gave them the confidence to continue. Later many more German winegrowers were brought to NSW and Victoria.

Hope this is of interest to you as it is to me. Thank you for reading this email and all the best with your family history research. Kind regards Julie Watt from QLD
Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 10:35 pm:   

I am descended from Johann Wenz whose daughter, Margaret, married a convict, Lazarus Chapman (assigned to John Macarthur of Camden). Julia Ann Chapman married George Henry Lawrence in 1899.

I do have some details of the Wenz family.

I have just moved to Qld myself Julie.
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 6:01 pm:   

Hi fellow QLDer
Sorry I did not get back to you when you posted to this list. Computer problems BIG!!!
I would love to learn more about these first winegrowing families from Germany if you are interested in sharing info.
Thanks and have a great day
Kind regards
Michael Mina
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:34 pm:   

Hi - I am a descendant from Friedrich Sickold and have been researching the Seckold Family Tree for 30 years. Recently visited Sickold relatives in Germany.
kind regards ... Michael
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 10:25 pm:   

Hello Michael
It is so good to have your email I have had contact from descendants of nearly all the other five families that came over on the Kinnear in 1838 with my Johann Justus. We should all get together someday at Camden Park maybe just like our ancestors did all those years ago. They certainly would have known each other.

I thought You might be interested in your Frederick Sickold's headstone inscription from a little cemetery at THE UNITING CHURCH, PARKESBOURNE NEAR GOULBURN, NEW SOUTH WALES.I was checking it out for my surname interests and came across this maybe you know about it but just in case you didn't here 'tis. I'll be in touch am in a hurry but wanted to make contact and give you the cemetery details before I forgot.
Have a terrific day

Other known interments at the cemetery but with no
extant memorials are:

a Frederick Seckold, born in 1801 in Mittelheim Germany,
arrived in Australia in 1838, and died on 20.12.1880
at Breadalbane aged 79. Interred on 1.1.1881.
Father of Christiana Cox (Breadalbane, Plot 17).
Alan Stewart
Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 7:20 pm:   

To Julie & anonymous Qld
Yes I am also related to Johann Wenz, my greatgreatgreatgrandfather is Lazarus Chapman. Margaret nee Wenz and Lazarus Chapman's daughter Elizabeth married John Brown my greatgreat granfather July 1859 at Camden, in the presence of John Stein and Herrietta Stein. Can you please contact me if you can help me with my family tree.
Julie Watt
Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 8:29 pm:   

Hello Alan
I think I have been in touch with another Wenz descendant but I need to check my files as I could be mixed up with one of the other's. Will let you know how I get on. Cool to be in touch with the descendants of the original 6. A get together would be fun glad you like the idea too.
Thanks Julie
Fay Lawrence
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 2:32 pm:   

Hello Julie, Alan et al
Have just checked out this discussion group again. Thanks for your interesting postings.

I would be very interested in a reunion of the descendants of the German winegrowers who travelled together in 1838 on the Kinnear. 23-4-2006 will be the 168th anniversary of the arrival of the ship in Sydney.

Does anyone know about the house in Sydney that John Wenz (d. -2-1853) won?

I am also trying to find out more about Sir Daniel Cooper. Sarah Ann Dowle, wife of John Chapman (son of Lazarus Chapman and Margaret Wenz) worked for the Cooper family from the age of 10. At 19 she travelled with the family to England, Scotland and Germany.

I will include some notes I have made in my Wenz family history database:
1837 - 1849
Johann Wenz from Hattenheim, made way to London. "... as soon as their 5 year contracts were completed, William Macarthur dismissed them" [ie about 5 families brought out at the same time] (p.22) as he [W M] disagreed with the Germans' expressions of political freedom. All those discharged easily found new positions. "Johann Wenz worked for John Taylor of Lochinvar in the Hunter Valley, where he laid out a vineyard of twenty-eight acres and worked until he won a house in a lottery in Sydney about 1849." (p22) Josef F Horadam was also employed by John Taylor and refers to J Wenz in his letter to brothers in his home town of Wiesbaden (p90). (Greetings from the Land where Milk and Honey flows: the German Emigration to NSW 1838-1858, ed by Patricia Cloos and Jurgen Tampke. See pp 11, 22, 27, 90, 97, 116, 193-4.)
1849 - July
Declarations by Johan Wenz of Lochinvar and William Macarthur in support of John Wenz' 'naturalization'. [49/6539 AONSW]

Judy Ussher
Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 4:32 pm:   

G'Day All, I too am a descendant of Fredrieck Seckold, & would be interested in a reunion of the descendants of the six winegrowers. Ihave only recently learnt of them and I must Say I'm very Interested.
Daniel Cox
Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 5:21 pm:   

Well Hello all,

I'll keep this fairly short as an intro. I stumbled across this today although I've seen the other references listed.

I am also a descendant of Friedrich Seckold being a (I know it's a mouthful) Great Great Great Grandson of Christiana Cox nee Seckold.

I am interested in Family History although it is a losing battle in some ways as my Grandparents Generation is starting to pass on.

For detail information though I'll have to consult my Grandparents and Mother who have been the keen researchers to date.

A reunion sounds interesting although 170th Anniversary provides greater lead-time for a more significant event with greater opportunity to promulgate information about it in order to increase numbers.


Daniel Cox
Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 5:26 pm:   

Just thought I might add I am in Sydney NSW.

Also Christiana's future husband John Cox was also on the Kinnear.


Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 4:48 pm:   

Well hello all. I have just stumbled across this site, and happy to tell you that I am a great,great,great grandaughter of Johann Wenz,and would love to learn more about the family.Johann,s daughter catherine was my great, great grandmother., Regards, suzanne
Fay Lawrence
Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:39 am:   

Hello Suzanne
It is good to note another relative.

I have a note that Johann Wenz was Catherine's uncle. She came out on the 'Kinnear' with JW's family. I have noted that she was b. 24-04-1832, parents Erwein Wenz and Agnes Boller. Am not sure of my source.
regards Fay.
Dianna Mellino
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 11:32 am:   

Just found this site. I am descended from Caspar Flick, one of the original six winegrowers recruited by MacArthur. I would love to make contact with anyone related to Caspar.
Roy Seckold
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   

Hi have read the above, I am a descendant of Frederick and Margurita Seckold, (GGrandparents) their son Frederick is my G/Grandfather) his son Walter is my grandfather and my father was Roy Avis Seckold. I have had contact with descendants of the 6 families that came out and Have also visited the Sickolds in Hallgarten, Germany, I keep in touch with them
Katherine Flick
Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   

I am a descendant of Caspar Flick on my dads side, I grew up in Sydney, I would love any information on his and his families life here. when I look at his descendant names they are repeated throughout my family my brother is named John Henry and my father Raymond Henry and my grandfather was Henry ? Caspar had 2 children who he brang on the ship from Germany a John(3) and Henry (1)and my side comes from John who Married ann Alice Dore in 1854 in Singleton. they then had a daughter Rossanna in 1855 and a Daniel John in 1857. Daniel John then married Catherine Mary Becker in 1882 in Patrick Plain and they had 9 children which included my grandfather Henry in 1903. Do you have any further information as this is all I have. looking forward to hearing anything about these German families who may have known my family.

Julie Watt
Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:24 pm:   

Hello everyone
How about a get together for descendants of the first 6 winegrowers from Germany to NSW in 1838? Well I would love to organise something for the 170th Anniversary April 2008 and soon I will be moving down to the area where my ancestor Johann Justus first settled in Australia. I am after expressions of interest at this stage and would love any ideas you might have as well. I thought we might get together at Camden Park (if possible) and see where our ancestors lived. It would be pretty good to have this at the time when our ancestors first arrived to start a new life here in Australia. If you know anyone who is a descandant please tell them of our intentions and if you are in any geanealogy mailing list please let them know you never know we may find more descendants that might like to join in too. When I am settled hopefully in a few months I will get into organisational mode properly and maybe even get to the library and see the MacCarthur papers. Please start gathering up any relevant info that you may have about your ancestor and/or the 6 families as a group It would be good to have a display of our papers etc so please keep your originals and make copies for the display. This is in the very early stages unfortunately I was unable to pursue this any ealier but as they say better late than never. I think our ancestors would be proud to see us acknowledging their lives and getting together as they did 170 years beforehand. We can honour their lifestyle change and the fact they made history in NSW they deserve it. Besides if they hadn't come to Australia goodness knows where we all would have ended up. They paved the way for us today and I respect them for what they would have endured as a result of leaving their native Germany to start a life in an English speaking country that was only still basically in it's infancy - amazing people.
Looking forward to hearing from you with your expressions of interest and ideas that you may have to make this occasion a memorable celebration of the lives of our dear ancestors.
Will be in touch
regards Julie
Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 9:51 am:   

my great grandfather john coleman married johann and julia wenz's daughter anna maria in 1850 at the west maitland catholic chapel. John and anna maria eventually moved to narrabri where they had a large family
Julie Watt
Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:52 pm:   

Dear Mary
It is good to have contact with another descendant of the 6 winegrowers who came out on the Kinnear. Mary would you be interested in the get together mentioned above? It would be good if you were to contact me so I can keep you up to date with our progess. Do you know any other descendants that might be interested as well if so please let them know and pass on my details for them to join the group too.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards
Julie Watt??
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 2:23 am:   

Hello everyone, I too am a descendant of Frederick Seckold of Mittelheim West Germany. My Great Great Grandmother is Theresa Jane Seckold. (Fredericks Granddaughter). Her daughter Florence Ada is my Great Grandmother. Her son Roy William Barry is my Grandfather. I have just started tracing my roots, so any help concerning my family history would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Katrina
Paul Rudd
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:19 pm:   

Hello other Seckold / Kinnear people. I am related to Frederick Seckold and am interested now because I'm heading over to Germany for a trip in July-August. It'll be good to meet the Sickolds still in Germany or at least see something from the family in Germany. I remember about 10 years ago the Seckolds had a family reunion that I attended.
Fay Lawrence
Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   

Posted by Fay Lawrence on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 4:11 am:

Reunion in Camden, NSW on 26-27 April, 2008.

If are you interested in celebrating the arrival of the first German bounty workers in NSW on the 'Kinnear' in Sydney 1838 please contact Julie Watt on 02-4683 3973 or email>

Contact Fay> for following flier:
"The Original Six ~ Rheingau to Camden Park ~ 1838-2008 Celebrating 170 years since 6 German Vinedressers, with their families, arrived on the Kinnear.
26-27 April, 2008 in Camden, NSW"
Lisa Twomey
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 9:35 pm:   

Just reading posts here about reunion. I think it would be a great idea. I am descended from Margaret Wenz and Lazarus Chapman. Maiden name was Chapman and still live in Camden area.
Fay Lawrence
Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   

Reunion plans are progressing well for
'The Original Six ~ Rheingau to Camden Park ~ 1838-2008. Celebrating 170 years since 6 German Vinedressers with their families arrived on the barque 'Kinnear' 1838-2008'.

We now have a website, see:

You can register your interest as well as download a 'flyer'.
Fay, 6th gen descended from Johann & Juliana Wenz
Janine Philip
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:01 am:   

Hello All
I have only just found out that I too am descended from Johann Wenz and I have been living in Camden for many years on land that used to be owned by the Macarthurs! My grandmother's name was Gladys Lawrence whose married name was Proctor. My cousin has just informed me of this reunion and I am very excited. I will only have to "walk around the corner" to get to the venue. If there are any rellos in Camden please feel free to contact me. I did not know any of this and have really never known any family history or had a sense of where I came from. I am so keen to find out more. So please email with any information. I do remember my father, Barry, speaking about Grandma Lawrence and Grandma Chapman, but that is all I know.
Ricki Noble
Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 9:41 am:   

Hi there,
I am also a descendant of Frederick and Margarette Seckold through their daughter Christiana and her husband John Cox. I have just read the 2005 post by Daniel Cox stating that John Cox also arrived on the Kinnear. Can anyone verify that this is fact or possibly just a verbal family history "pass down"?? Looking foward to hearing from any other direct line descendants of John and Christiana. If you read this Daniel, can you contact me please.
Irene Richardson
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 1:04 pm:   

I've just started researching for some friends and have traced their Cox family back to John Cox and Christiana Seckhold through Frederick Cox and Susannah Bailey. I can't find where John Cox fits in although I presume he is a relation to William Cox as he and Christiana married in the Cox family church at Mulgoa (as well as the R C it seems). I read a posting that John cox may have been on the Kinnear. Just wanted to say that there's a feeling in the family that their ancestor may have been a mariner or had something to do with shipping. Just wondering whether John Cox may have been a crew member on the Kinnear? His son Frederick was later involved with some shipping venture in Gosford its believed. Cheers Irene
monique valenti
Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 11:40 am:   

Hi all..

Stumbled across this quite by accident and hope someone is still out there reading this board.

I too am a descendent from the Seckhold line. Also, funnily enough, through a COX family connection that appears later then those already referred to and am wondering if their is a further connection somewhere.

Margaret Seckhold and John Skelton's son William Jabez married my great grandfather's sister- Emily Ann Cox.
any contact would be appreciated!

Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 6:58 pm:   

Phillip Carrett
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 10:54 pm:   

Hi after many months of research I have found that I am descended from Georg Gerhard. His daughter Anna Maria married John Carroll 1840 at St Johns Church Campbelltown witnesses were Lazarus and Margaret Chapman. Two of John and Anna daughters-Jane and Mary- married two Bugden boys-Augustine and Lewis. Lewis is my G G grandfather on my mothers side. The Gerhards were recorded as Garrett severall times. When pronounced in german Gerhard does sound like Garrett. I believe this family remained in the Camden area up until the mid 1860's when Georg and Franzisca (spouse) moved to the Murrumbidgee with two of their sons. They both died in 1873.
Heather Webb
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 12:55 pm:   

Johann Stein is my GGG Grandfather and I am trying to find info on him,I have photos of his son Emmanuel and his wife but any information would be great. There's not many left on that side now.
What wonderful families they were to come here and change all our lives...
Will go to Mudgee NSW soon to see the Stein winery and meet family.
suzanne lawrence
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 3:03 pm:   

I would like to be in touch with anyone linked to the Wenz family. I am related to Lazarus Chapman. I know this thread is a few years old. Suzanne
kevin williams
Posted on Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 2:43 pm:   

Katherine Flick, I would love to hear from you, my great grandmother Gertrude flick is the sister to your grandfather henry flick. I am also wanting any info on the Flick family and have found a little on the wine dressers mentioned here
Posted on Monday, June 10, 2019 - 11:50 am:   

I am hoping after reading many post from years ago that someone out there can shed some light ,my mother and 2 of her sisters were foster by Thomas Lazarus and Agnes Chapman in about 1933 ,my mum always said she was adopted but we can't find any proof of that so think they were just foster ,Thomas was a son of Lazarus and Margaret Chapman , we can't work out how they got to foster them when they were quite old at the time ,makes Lazarus about 69 when he adopted 3 small children my mum was 2 ,her sister were 4 and 8 , so thinking they must had been friends or relatives of their parents my mum father was German his name was Charles Estreich his father was Jon Estreich hope this all makes sense thankyou Heather

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